E12 | Stop Throwing Managers in the Deep End | Ron Klinger on HR.Salon Podcast

In this episode of HR Salon, host Andrew Biernat sits down with Ron Klinger, a Houston-based consultant who helps organizations win by unlocking the power of their people. Ron and Andrew — with matching energy and gusto — dig into why so many organizations are stuck at historic lows in engagement, and why the fix isn't a pizza party or a ping pong table.

Ron and Andrew compare frameworks for defining engagement before zeroing in on the real lever for organizational change: the middle manager. Ron makes the case that mid-management is the glue holding companies together — the conduit between executive vision and frontline execution — and that most organizations set new managers up to fail by promoting their best individual contributors without ever training them to lead people.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why nearly two-thirds of the global workforce is disengaged — and why that hurts the engaged one-third the most
• Why middle managers are the most critical (and most neglected) layer in any organization
• The danger of turning technical superstars into managers without training ("you just killed their career")
• Why the word "subordinate" should be banned from every manager's vocabulary
• How generational differences — up to six generations in one workplace — complicate management today
• A simple framework for effective one-on-ones: engagement score, workload check, and priority alignment
• Why self-awareness is the first domino in becoming a better manager or leader
• The "help me help you" approach to managing up and protecting your team from C-suite chaos
• Why career pathing (not just paychecks) is key to closing the purpose gap between frontline workers and executives
• Ron's bottom-line philosophy: "Take care of your people, and they'll take care of your business"

Ron Klinger helps organizations win through the power of employee engagement, retention, and people-first management. Connect with him on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/ronklinger/ or visit his site at mtran.com.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Welcome back to HMR Salam. Today I'm joined by Ron Klinger. He helps organizations win by engaging the power of their people. Ron, welcome to the show. Welcome and Hardy Honey from Houston, Texas. Love it. I love it. So in case you couldn't tell, Ron is uh he's got that little Texas twang, but it's it's leveled out, you know. It's that city twang. It's not quite deep south. Uh so Ron, super pumped. Ever since we've met, we've been like this uh almost like these like polar magnets that are like keep like pushing off of each other, right? And like just kind of spinning around like crazy. Uh, we've both got high energy. Ron's actually got a ton of experience in uh in radio. Um, he doesn't have the face for it, which is great. He's a beautiful, beautiful man.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

I knew there was gonna be a shot coming somewhere. Yeah, I even trying to get the lighting right to give me some, you know, to you know, to do that camera aspect. So uh loving it. Looking forward to the chopping up shop today and having the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Should be great. It should be great. So Ron and I kind of work in similar spheres. We we do a lot with employee engagement, we do a lot with companies around their people and performance management and and everything that goes into how do you make a team work, how do you make an organization uh do the work that it's meant to do. And I think a great spot maybe for us to start today is to discuss maybe how we define employee engagement, what that actually looks like, because I think every person and every organization defines it a little bit differently. What does it actually mean? And sometimes when people aren't defining it well, it's very unclear how to fix it or what to even do about it. So when I define employee engagement, I usually define it using the the three laws or the three key motivating factors that every single person experiences. And I call them the motivational vitamins. So there's vitamin A, vitamin B, vitamin C, and they have these needs at work. And if they're not getting their needs met, okay, these vitamin needs, they are not going to be engaged. They are going to naturally disengage uh because that is the the natural extension of that. So they need autonomy, they need a sense of belonging, and they need a sense of growth within their work. So that's how I would typically define engagement is are they getting their needs met at work? Because when they are, they are going to do their best work. So curious for you, Ron, how do you define it? And let's maybe see where we meet in the middle and and where we're different.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Yeah, no, I I love that you're you're bringing some of the the data component to it there. And there's a lot of metrics and tools out there. You know, I think of Gallup's Q12 as you know, top of mind, right? You know, just when we're having this conversation. When I look at employee engagement, I look at it through the lens of creating a culture where the best of each individual can show up and contribute. So if you ask that question, hey Andrew, when you're coming to work every day, is the best of you permitted, encouraged, coached, developed to allow the best of you to show up and contribute and to make an impact? To me, it's a yes or a no question. And if it's somewhere in the middle, okay, well, then tell me more. So let's find out what's working, let's find out what's not. But it's the old adage, take care of your people and they'll take care of your business because you know and I know if you've ever been on a service call or you've ever been out at your favorite restaurant and you're getting terrible service, I would venture to say they're not very engaged nor empowered. Uh, and that impacts your experience and the customer side. So, again, take care of your people, they'll take care of your customers. So that's that's how I look at it. And I think it's extremely powerful. Um, and it's it's a hot topic right now because we're at a global all-time low of employee engagement. And I know we're gonna get into it, but man, who has that biggest impact? I think some folks may agree or it might be surprised.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Yeah, and I think you're you're barking up the right tree here because we're looking at these numbers that just keep getting worse. Like they're just they're not good. I think we're at like something around 30% of employees are engaged, actively engaged, which in most terms just means like showing up and doing well at work, which in in my mind was like the baseline expectation, uh, right? Is like you show up, you do good work, and like that's just a part of your day. But about 30% of people are meeting that bar uh on the personal side, but also on the business execution side. And then we're looking at that that gap on the other side of that is like, well, what are the other 70% doing?

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Well, that's more than two-thirds, right? So if you take two-thirds of the workforce globally, now Gallup does this, other organizations do it. Gallup, in my humble opinion, does it the best, and and they're looking at it if two-thirds of the workforce is in some level of disengagement and they define it as being just actively disengaged, disengaged, or engaged, right? And if if if two-thirds are in either actively disengaged or disengaged, and actively disengaged, meaning, and I use it, sorry, I'm gonna do it. I can't resist, I use this all the time. They're like a seagull. They go around and they're doing nothing but squawk, squawk, squawk, you know, and then they make a mess for someone else to clean up. They're actively out there, right? And the problem is if no one's holding them accountable for that behavior, if no one's redirecting or correcting, and you said performance manager, ding, ding, ding, ding, my lights go off. But there's a whole host of things that take place that contribute to that, then the reality is the problem is, you know what the biggest issue is? That two-thirds negatively impacts the one-third who are showing up doing the work. And if there's an organization or a culture that doesn't fit that, and most often, and we're gonna get into this, it's their manager, it's their leader that is directly doing that either by not holding accountable, by not set doing whatever performance management is. Sorry, right? I get excited about this because it's all preventable. It's all preventable, Andrew. And if if if those act those truly engaged employees who are passionate, who show up, who do the work, right? If they don't fit, they're gonna leave. So it behooves every organization out there to have a mindset and some people when they hear engagement, oh, we got to cater to employees. No, it's not a pizza party. That's not employee engagement, it's not putting a ping pong table in the room, right? That's not engagement.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

We did a survey, we asked about their feeling. Yeah, and they'll fix that.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

No, it's being mindful of how you go through the entire process, and we both know how costly it is to hire somebody, especially in today's market. It's crazy. And the cost of not getting that hire right, but also there's a cost of not setting up that employee for success. Like, why are you gonna hire somebody just to have them come in in six weeks be like, this place is toxic? Why? It's all preventable if you're proactive. And the problem is a lot of times we don't go down the route as organizations. I've seen it, right? To where you're truly engaging and developing those managers with tools and and and information and resources in their toolkit. And we make managers working managers so they have their plate, they have how many people they're managing or leading's plate, and which one's going to lose the one of their team, because they're gonna have somebody that everyone reports to someone. So, how do I make sure that I don't lose my job by keeping my boss happy, but or my manager or my leader? But if that leader at the next level up isn't holding me as a manager accountable to my team's success, and that's the whole part that completely blows my mind. You know what blows my mind, Andrew? This is what sets me cuckoo for Coco Puffs crazy off. You ready? Right, go ahead. If managers and specifically that mid-management, the people that touch the most individual contributors could wake up and understand that if you help your teammates win, your team, your team members, notice I'm not using that sub-language. If there's one word that I scrub out other than use an example, it's subordinate. I don't believe anyone is sub below, beneath, or anything, I don't use it. And I challenge managers. Why do you using that word sub? Well, that's what they no, they're not. They are individual contributors that are members of your team. And if you're not investing them in with a team and a culture and an engagement perspective, you aren't gonna win. You aren't gonna win as the manager. So the whole thing is flips it around to that servant aspect of it, not from uh that servant leadership side of and heart. If I help my five or six or ten, how many other people you manage, if they're being successful, at the end of the day, who's winning? My team. And who's leading the team? Me. I just don't understand how that's that's in some in some circles, not all, because there are some great managers out there. Don't get me wrong. I'm not I'm not saying this is a carte blanche, you know, you know, brush over all management. But if the number one reason why people leave the job and the number one reason why people are disengaged is because of their manager, managers, if they can just wake up and smell the coffee and recognize hey, the more I enable and empower them to succeed, the more successful I am, every organization would be thriving on a whole nother level.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Yeah. So, and this kind of maybe maybe brings up a key distinction, and we've had a conversation about this already. But I think a lot of people maybe target the wrong group when they're trying to fix stuff like this. In my mind, there's maybe you know three easy buckets to break up an organization. You have your individual contributors, your frontline workers, you've got your middle management, and then you've got high-level leaders, executive team, leadership team, whatever you want to call them. And and and many people they'll they'll target the top end, like, we gotta get that, we gotta fix the CEO or COO, we gotta get everyone figured out there, right? And then they'll they'll have that trickle-down effect, right? Um, and then other people are like, well, we got to get those frontline workers, they're making up the bulk of employees, we got to do something for them. And you've already been alluding to middle managers in particular. Curious your perspective there, why not the top end or bottom end, bottom end? Why the middle?

SPEAKER_00 10:36

So I'm gonna come at this a little bit unconventional because it's all three. What do I mean by that? And I'm gonna talk about why mid-management see I mid-management to me is the glue. It's the conduit up and the conduit down. And if you you don't have C-suite executives, if you don't have leaders, I I had a CEO at an HR event here in Houston about two months ago, who was the most utterly vulnerable, honest, transparent CEO I've ever heard in my entire life, who said, I never would have worked for myself. I would work for me. And I had to wake up one day and I had to realize I had to change. I had to change how and what I did because I just thought I was the boss and I was just dictating, and you do this and you do that, because that's what I thought I needed to do as the CEO and the owner of the company. And then I woke up and realized that it's the exact opposite. Like he actually wrote a book about bringing love to work. Like we're talking about a 180, aha. But his level of vulnerability was just, I've never seen it. And it was amazing and it was inspiring. So it takes my point is it takes that executive, that upper level, those three tiers, right? It takes that executive suite, it takes that ownership suite to recognize we're gonna win by setting also setting people up. It's it that trickle down, it is. I need to set up my mid managers for success so they can set up my individual contributors for success, but the mid managers are the ones who are the most critical because they're stuck between the both levels. Yep, they're stuck between both levels. So if there's a message that comes down from the top, or heaven forbid, you have have a flat organization, it's horizontal, whatever. I don't care. You've got to show up because, oh, by the way, with the drop of engagement is also the drop of management engagement levels that are an all-time low because they're overburned, they're they're they're they're stressed out because there's no direct or lack of direction, is a theme that I've read, right? They don't know where we're going. We've got this whole thing called AI, which, quite frankly, I don't want to. I think we need folks. The human element is going to be present regardless of AI. Get good at leading the people and figure out how to use the tool that is AI in your business. And I think that's where things are really struggling right now with the engagement is people thinking, well, what's the point of me showing up? AI is going to take my job. And I think we're at that point where we haven't broke yet, we haven't gotten to the outer limit to understand the impacts of AI on work, and people are stressed, pressed, and as a result, disengaged.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Oh man, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

I don't know if that answers your question, but I it's all the above, but that's why that mid-management group is so critical to have those skills. And I think, Andrew, organizations, if we're talking about what does the workforce in the future look like, stop making your mid-managers working managers and have them be people managers and processes and systems. Let that be their job, not that plus whatever content or whatever areas or expertise. And I think that behooves not only individual organizations that maybe aren't technical, but even specifically those technical ones. Don't take someone who's a technical resource and a stud and an all-star and a superstar. Don't promote Bob or Sue into management if they are the technical expert in your individual contributor team because you just you you just killed their career.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Yeah. Well, right, you hit the Peter principle there is, right? You proved yourself out here. So let's just move you on to a bigger role. And I know a number of people that are excellent at their jobs, they don't want to manage, they just want to do excellent work in their role. And by promoting them into something that is supposedly this the step up, it often goes horribly. So I mean, let's maybe talk about that transition from individual contributor to manager, right? Either first-time managers or like really stepping into this for the first time. In my experience, from what I've seen, it's usually someone who's done really well. They maybe show some leadership qualities or they showed up at the company golf tournament and they just helped out. And it seems like, man, they're a real go-getter, right? And they know how to talk to people. So they must, okay, they must be a good manager. And then they just get thrown in. They still probably have a percentage of their old job that they're still doing because maybe they didn't even backfill it. Um, so just continue to be excellent at what you were doing, and now you have to do all this other stuff. Um, and they're not, they're not given any training, they're not taught how to be great with people, they don't have any peer support in terms of how other people are doing it well, because everyone else on the team also had that same training, which was none, right? There was a minimal, all kind of figured out as you go. And you end up with these weird pockets of like certain people rise to the occasion and become great managers, and a bunch of other ones are just in the middle or terrible. And you have these different departments that are running well, these different departments that are dysfunctional, these different departments that are like teetering on the edge of either one. And and it feels chaotic and it feels like you can't fill your roles. It feels like people are leaving, and it feels like your business is ready to grow, but it can't grow. And I'm curious for you, Ron, what are people doing wrong when it comes to that that middle manager, that newer manager, or or the training needed for someone to actually be successful in the in their new role?

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Yeah, and I think it's a yeah, it's it's a it's there's a lot there to unpack, Andrew. And I I I think it's a twofold. I think there are some organizations out there that are doing a great job of this, right? I and and their numbers, their their engagement numbers, their retention numbers, you know, all of those things will be demonstrative of we've got the right people in the bus and the right seat on the bus. Okay. I think the struggle is that I see today is is it's a couple of different things. The first one, I think HR is always the the or the the the the entity inside an organization that's going to have that responsibility. So then the question begets does HR have a seat at the table? And if human resources leaders or training and development or learning development executives aren't sitting at the table and able to talk today in today's climate about what they're doing and the impact on the bottom line in the business, then I think there's a there's a broken conversation. We're doing this. It may be the passion and maybe, yes, I know this, but unfortunately, in today's world, those executives, the CEO, the CFO, the COO, the CRO, they all want to know what's the impact, what's what's the bottom line, what's just gonna happen. So I think that's part of the biggest piece that we've got to be able to demonstrate and record the impact, positive and negative, of developing managers. Like so, I think is a data mismatch, right? Now we're getting data that says number one reason why everyone leaves is their manager. So you would think, but why am I gonna open up the purse strings and allocate budgetary funds to developing either having a full-time person or bringing in an outside consultant? Why do I want to invest in that? That's that's the conversation. That's the the why and and and and the impetus for doing so is what needs to be said in organizations that I don't I don't think everyone's got their pulse on it. Let me tell you why. How many organizations out there qualify as a small to medium-sized business? If you go out and you do that search with the small business administration of the United States, it will tell you a very high 90% number, which I'm still not sold on. Those businesses don't have the bandwidth, unfortunately. And and um unfortunate, but unfortunately, then they suffer for it. Right? And so you you have those entities, again, falling on human resources, who are responsible for employee development directly, but there needs to be a collaborative partnership between the chief operating officer, if you've got one, or whoever's in charge of operations, your general manager. Someone has to step up and say, Hey, we really need to make sure that we've got good managers because we're constantly losing people. And we and to your point, if you're constantly onboarding and then offboarding and then on, you're you're gonna stagnate. You're never, whatever your goals strategically or or revenue or or or impact are are trying to rise to, it's never going to be done because you don't have a stable workforce. Right? There's nothing worse than to have a a tenured customer client that's been with you for three, five, ten or more years, and they're on their fifth or sixth customer representative or associate in four years.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Because you can't because they got promoted, it's because they left.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Because they left. And so the the first principle that I think everyone has to understand I don't care what industry you're in, I don't care what widget, serv it, gadget, doodad, whatever it is that you do. Understand every single one of us, you, me, all of us, we're in the relationship business. AI can't replace that. The key to developing relationships is more significant now than ever. Coming out of COVID, coming out of all the mess that is the world today. And those that are going to succeed have the managers who can still go from buddy to boss because they've got tools in that toolkit that help them to communicate and articulate and to build that human connection. Because at the end of the day, that's part of the process, Andrew. We've all we all want to connect with others, we all want to belong. And work is necessary, and we want that work to be meaningful. And because the reality is, Andrew, we spend more time with people that we work with if we're going to a job and we're working in an organization than we do with our own families.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Which that says something about the state of society too, and maybe that's a conversation for another day. That's a whole nother topic. That's a that's a whole nother podcast episode. Um, but we look at we've honed in on middle managers as as a primary focus, as an as a as the biggest win lever, I think, in a lot of ways, right? Spending the time, energy, effort, money, fine, you know, financial energy, whatever it is, right? Right. Yeah, whatever you're investing, right? It could be time, it could be money, it could be anything. Um, but you but it needs investment. And so we look at that middle manager, and you're and you've alluded to that that sense of relationship, that connection, and and really ultimately that that business is going to win or lose based on the the general singular manager to singular individual contributor relationship? What does that look like? How does it function? When is it working well? How do you continue to make it work well? And like you take like you talked about some of the simple tools or conversation structures or whatever else it is, that goes a long way to enhancing that manager to contributor relationship. So I guess maybe number one, what are companies doing wrong when it comes to manager to contributor relationships and what do they need to be doing better?

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Yeah, I think it boils down simple. It's it's it's not empowering or enabling them to be successful in their management role. Right? You you you you a lot of organizations, and I have one of one of the best two leaders my direct boss, and then and then the president of the university I used to work at. Or CEO in this particular case, right? Excuse me. Used to advertise all the time. Like, hey, a lot of organizations take your managers, push them in the deep end, and hope they survive. And I think that I think at the end of the day, that's that's the simplest of answers to your question. We hope they'll survive. We hope that they'll figure it out. Because I did. Right. And I think I think the multiplier in that are the generational differences of how we learn and how we grow. Right. If you take those executive level leaders, if you take those folks, that's exactly how they learned it. Right. I'll have conversations all the time in a management class because I teach them, I customize management programs, depending upon the needs within an organization. But one of the things I start out knowing your role as a manager, what is my role? No one's defined it. If you don't define it, you can't measure it. If you can't measure it, you can't manage it. Like I don't know what to do, what's important, right? It's like saying, hey, I want to lose some weight. Okay, well, that's not a that's not defined, just losing weight. All right, whatever. So if I'm getting tempted and there's a great deal for, oh, I don't know, chicken wings, buffalo, I'm gonna say, hey, that looks really great today. Well, that doesn't help me get to my goal. My point being, it also is when I talk to managers and that know your role, so if we don't define measure, manage, the other part of it that comes to play is we always go back to our past experience. So we use what we know, and that may not be the effective way to do it. So in this age where we've got upwards of six, Andrew, one, two, three, four, five, six generations in the workplace, how we show up, how we work, what we do, and how we do in the combination of those life journeys are so diverse. It's one of the biggest issues of diversity, in my humble opinion, that exists in the workplace because we're so different. You take there still are some silent generation folks out there in the workplace. You've got baby books, very, very, very small, but they're there, right? They came through the Great Depression. Take that life journeying experience of the 1920s as a kid growing up and put it to the kid that just started the work to work for the very first time. Oh, which by the way, never had to work, so they don't know what it means to show up and clock it on time, dress attire, and and pull you up by your bootstraps and figure it out, right? Like, right.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

You don't know what it's like to stand in a breadline, and if you're not there early, you don't get to eat that day, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Or or even more so, you know, how to spell. Hey, can you spay? You know, now we're talking to our phones or AI to help us spell. It's like, wait a minute, you can't do just the basics of of what our educational journey was about. And I'm not saying right, I'm not saying wrong, I'm saying awareness. It's a difference, a difference in upbringing, it's a difference in generational values, but if but if organizations don't understand the readiness and they're not, they've not done again. I'm gonna go back to define what do you what are the skill sets, competencies, and abilities that it's in the questions. How do you define what is needed for your managers in your organization to be successful? Create that profile. What does it look like? And then what are those competencies? And do you have those? You know, one of the things that you look at all the the HRMS systems that are out there, and it takes a long time. Please don't. This is a this is probably one of the biggest projects any organization can undertake. And maybe AI can help, and I don't, I haven't researched to see if there's tools, but do competency mapping across an organization by position, and then have the actually have your managers rating competencies. So when you need someone that excels in certain areas, your software can do it for you and find who has ABC in one, two, three. Defining it allows you to measure it, who has it, who does it, so that you can manage it by either promoting or not. And unfortunately, to your point, some people get promoted because they're the most outgoing, bubbly personality on the face of this planet, but that doesn't mean they know how to manage people. How do we produce results? How do we how do we focus on you know the right things? And I'm gonna be blunt. I had a senior VP manager who complained repeatedly that, oh, why don't we get anything over the goal line? Uh well, you are the problem because you keep moving the goal line, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:32

You keep changing it, you keep modifying the rules, modifying what we're doing. So, okay, I get it.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

You're at that level, you're interacting with the C-suite, be the buffer. Like, hey, we can't do all things, we're focusing on X right now. Does that because that's going to produce Y? And it's a it's a stepping stone. So be the leader in that position and buffer the rest of the team to get the things done that they're excited and engaged to do and contribute. So you can create some wins. That's why that's why when I said earlier, like what do you do? I try to help organizations win through the power of their people and engagement and retention. Because if your team is winning, then your organization is winning if you're focusing on the right things because you defined measure and you're managing it accordingly.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Yeah. You talk about, yeah, I like the idea of defining. I think a lot of organizations, that's their first failure is they don't clearly define things, they don't clearly define the role, they don't clearly define what winning is, they don't clearly define uh what the results or the expectations are, uh, and then all the rest of it you can't even follow through on. So, and you're just talking about the idea of a buffer, right? As a manager, you're you're buffering in a sense the the sometimes chaos at the upper levels, or sometimes changing wins or changing attitudes and and the reality of the frontline laborers, whatever it is that they're doing, and they have to deal with real market conditions, they have to deal with real customers, they have to deal with real problems, real challenge happening in the moment, right? And and much of it is man, I don't feel supported, I don't feel like I have the help I need. I feel like you want me to do this, but I'm like, I don't have the time to do it, right? And and so I think I think the better managers are able to push back against the foolishness from the C-suite sometimes that can happen, and not even foolishness, but more just the lack of knowledge. It's don't ambition, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:24

It's the ambition, right? You're at that level, you're leading at that level because you have ambition. You don't get to that C-suite without being ambitious, but it's it's it's recognizing okay, we can't do all things, so let's do the right things. Let's do the right things. Yep. And how can we do the right things? Comes back to the definition, yeah, right? Comes back to the definition.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

A lot of times I'll I'll teach on a uh a brief conversation structure of you know, especially if you're already overloaded, overwhelmed, there's too much going on. Is hey, here are my priorities, boss, or executive or whoever else. Which ones do you want me to deprioritize in order to take on this new thing that you're giving me?

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Yeah, and you know what I call that?

SPEAKER_01 29:03

I I have a work that's called managing up, right? Yeah, right. Yeah, help me, help me figure out what's most important. Help me, help you, help me.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Yeah, show me show me the money, right? But but that's literally what it is. I mean, if you go back to that that that scene, if you go back to that scene in Jerry Maguire, right? Of of they didn't define the outcome. Help me help you. What do you want? What do you want to do? Where do you want to go? How like we we we I can't put a bigger punctuation mark or an emphasis or a highlight or whatever way you want to do it on the power of putting people down the right path where they invest their time and their energy. And then if you align that with their gifts, their talents, and their strengths, because you hired smart, you got the right person on the bus and the right no, and to sit here and out there to say that there's talent shortages and we're having a hard time getting people, like uh because you're not looking at the right things. I said it. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Is that it? No, it's not everyone else is wrong. It's not us. It's clearly not us.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Well, and it's it gets it gets wonky. And I say wonky because I get it. You got different shareholders, stakeholders, people who have influence. At the end of the day, the best thing that a business leader can do is recognize one, and my this is just Ron Klicker, it's my humble opinion. One, it's not about you, never was. Two, how can I surround myself with people that compliment what I bring to the table? And then to three, to me, how can I create a culture and an environment and lead that where the best of people can show up and contribute on the daily? Like it doesn't have like we we try to get so fandangled, and and I think that's part of the piece that frustrates me in this current climate is everyone's trying to be edgy and and and for lack of better word, you know, uh find the latest and the greatest. And I'm like, stop. Like there, there's stop some of the best nuggets around leading and managing are some of the and I've read a lot of the new age stuff. It's some of the foundational bedrocks of this is old. This isn't new. No, and but but we get so far because we're we're trying to be edgy and we're trying to be the latest and the greatest, and we're we're competing for the wrong the wrong type of recognition. Let's compete with okay, how do we truly empower our people to win? I I can't make it more simplistic than that. That's the number one. How do you how do you do that? And if that's not your focus, then your business is gonna suffer.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Yeah. For for the managers that are listening, what is what are a couple simple things that they can do to do their job better, to, to, to lead up better, to perhaps uh establish better relationships with not their subordinates, right? With with their team members on their team, right? How can they do a better job at at that, right? Where they feel that pinch, they feel like they've got too much going on.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

So the first the first domino that falls for me is how self-aware are you? Plain and simple. How self that that that that journey of self-awareness, Andrew, I I don't do a management or leadership program that I don't include awareness tools in it. I I won't because if you can't possess self-awareness and lead thyself, how can you expect how can you expect anyone to effectively manage and lead others?

SPEAKER_01 32:53

No, yeah, no.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Okay. So there's tools I've got in my toolkit, Insights Discovery. I love the work out of Gallup with a strengths finder. Um, there's a lot of lot of those type of assessments that people, ooh, like no, the whole purpose is how well do you know you so you know how to adapt and connect to others. Because that's that that's the whole key in building that relationship and that rapport. So that's to me, it's step one. You got to start with self-awareness. The second start, the second part is right, is once you have that awareness, where where are some of those blind spots that you need to be aware of, right? So that you can at least think more, read more, educate more, grow more. But more importantly, I also believe in the positive psychology, where are those areas of greatest strength and how can you show up, how can you do activities that allow that to show up each day? Right. So it's it's to me, it's a 70, 30, 80, 20, right? I want to do more of where how I show up and do it well, but I also need to be have enough about my blind spots so that I can surround people where that's their strength because it's not mine. Novel concept, right? And then I think the the last part, the last part is understand that the key to your success is building relationships and finding and understanding two things. One, what is the developmental level of each of the individuals you're using? I love situational leadership from Ken Blanchard, right? So, how do you meet somebody where they need to be met and help them grow and develop based upon their readiness level? So it's a phenomenal resource, great tool. You can go out the one-minute manager's out there, right? Um Ken Blanchard, I there's there's amazing again, back to the reading, right? Are you a developer of people? And I think that's a big key. But then I think the other part of that is are you setting aside time to truly sit down, listen, coach, and support your team members? Right? One-on-ones get a bad rap. I I see it all the time. I'm one-on-one to death. Well, then you're doing it wrong. I I truly believe the power of sitting down with someone one-to-one on whatever the frequency that makes sense, depending upon the tenure and the and the level of effectiveness of that employee, and just saying, hey, it's all, and again, Andrew, it's all about them. It's their one-on-one, it's not yours. But you're driving it to help coach them on, hey, and I I I use a tool, I created this agenda. How are you doing? What's your overall level of engagement today on a scale of one to right now this week? Scale of one to 10. How's it going? Right. And we talk about what it means for them to be engaged. So it's their definition, not mine. And so they rate that and like, well, tell me, okay, so what's going well? Because I want to hear what's going well. So if I've got projects or something that comes down to me that I need to push, how do I allocate that? Right. The other question I ask on a scale of one to 10, how would you describe your current workload? Ah, there's a tricky question, right? So it's important that we're on the same page. What does workload look like?

unknown 36:03

Right?

SPEAKER_00 36:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

We're going to do if you know that the workload is light, but they're saying it's a lot, it's an indication that maybe there's a training gap here. Maybe we're not on the same page.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Yeah. The whole goal, in my humble opinion, of a one-on-one is how do I best understand where my team member is? How do we make sure that we're on the same page? And then I ask, okay, what are the top priorities or projects that you're working on this week, or if it's every two weeks between now and our next one-on-one? I I'm I want to understand what do you perceive or believe is to be the priorities? And if there's so are we on the same page again? And then the whole thing is all rooted with, hey, what where are you at? And then what can I do differently? How can I help? What can I do differently? How can I help? If you say you're not engaged, what can I do differently? How can I help? If you see your workloads there, well, let's talk about that. Where's where you where are there missing gaps? Is this a training? Do you feel like you need more support? It it's having that's what it that's that's how you start to get there. And then when you do that over time, you start building the trust, you do that over time, you start building the culture, and then you do that over time, then they start showing up managing you, and all you're doing is then because they've grown in the organization. If they've grown from a developmental one, two, three, two, a delegate four, you've done your job and you're now producing someone who's ready to potentially take on another higher level goal of promotion. Understand what their goals, their aspirations, their career wants, their needs, their personal needs, right? And I'm not saying get personal to the depth, but like everybody goes to work for a reason. They've got a family to support, they've got whatever that debt, whatever that work product produces for them in their life. Understand what's important to them. So that when someone says, hey, I've got an issue and they've been putting in the hours. I need to, I've got this, you know, program for my kid at school, and it's during business hours because they're always during business hours because it's a school hours. Go. You've already you've done enough. Don't worry about it. Like, I'm not saying don't don't apply sick and personal leave or whatever. Apply the time accordingly. If they are a constant giver, give back.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Yeah. I think when it comes to those one-on-ones, I think there's a couple things that start to go wrong. Is you number one, maybe have someone that has too many direct reports, in which case it's very easy to get overwhelmed in one-on-ones, right? You got 20 people reporting to you, like that's an organizational problem, right? That's not uh it's not necessarily on the manager. But the other side of it is I think what a lot of managers are nervous about or tend to avoid is having to do items for the manager at the end of that one-on-one because they feel like they don't have the time, they don't have the bandwidth, they're overstressed.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

Oh, here comes Captain Delegation once again.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Yep. And it's like, and so they they hesitate to take anything on that would clear the path or help their employee or whatever else they need. Number one, because they're just overwhelmed or stressed. Number two, because they're maybe worried that they won't get to it, right? Like I'm just not gonna get it done for them. And how much worse is it to say you're gonna do something and then not? Um, so I guess for those managers that are feeling like extra stressed, like they have these one-on-ones and they don't want to take away a to-do list. How do you get them in the mindset of taking on what they can to help their people? Right. Because I think you alluded to this before, right? There's a lot of like player coaches, right? Like as I'm I'm coaching and I'm doing the leadership side, but I'm also like 50% or 80% of my time is doing the same stuff my employees are or similar stuff, or I'm just bottled up with bureaucracy that maybe doesn't need to exist. So curious for you, Ron, for those people in that situation, what do they need?

SPEAKER_00 39:51

I got two suggestions. One, you need to find an ally in your organization or someone outside of it that you can talk it through with. Right? You're not we're human beings, we're not expected to have every answer to every situation. So if the manager is struggling or the employees are struggling, right? If you're a manager and you're trying to figure out how to do it or what to do, I think the key is, you know, I've always said, hey, you you challenge it, you have conversations at this level and up, never this way. Now I'm guilty as charged, I've done, I and I've learned, I had to learn, right? And sometimes there's power in rallying together with your team members. But I think that's part of it is understanding that you're not alone. And then if you need that outside ally, I truly hope that organizations have, and I know that they do, because people don't go into human resources for glory. Right? They go in, they go in because they care about the human element of an organization. So it's my hope that at least there's an outside ally that you can go to, that you can talk to in confidence, that you can get some feedback, some coaching, right? You know, or seek out those resources on your own. Like there's so many online resources now. Like you can start to do it. Like one, you just gotta own it, right? And I think that's the biggest part. And then find the best way to do that, but also getting with people that you respect. Hey, I see how you lead. And thinking back to, you know, I think back to who my mentors are and who I value. I told somebody the other day I was explaining, you know, my journey in HR. And as a guy, well, you know, there are a lot of guys in human resources for percentage-wise. And I'll never forget because I would take a bullet for my past boss. I I literally would step in front of and take a bullet. I'll never forget going to my HR conference here in Houston, which I'm about. I'm speaking out here in August. So it's kind of a full circle moment. But the first thing I went, we left and I rode with her and I got in the car, and I'm like, um, I know I didn't go through HR in a profession from a study, but where are all the I didn't say it this way, but I probably want to say, we're all the dudes? We're all the guys. We're all the guys. And it and it was just, and it, and it was like, hey, this is a profession of people who are taking care of that human relationship. It brings a more nurturing and more caring presence to it right now. Some things that sometimes that's taken advantage of to be completely transparent too. But it's my hope that there are HR professionals out there, and I know that there are, absolutely know that they are, because you don't go in and see for the glory, like I said, who can be that trusted ally, that partner, that confidant to help people get through some of those challenges. They just don't know how to happen.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Yeah, yeah, 100%. I think a lot of organizations are number one, lacking a formal process around that, um, but even lack the informal encouragement around that. Of yeah, oh no, I saw Andrew go to the HR office. Something's up, somebody's in trouble.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

The stigma has to go away. But anyway, I I digress.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Yeah. So I think maybe we'll we'll move into this section of the conversation and and then we'll end off pretty soon here. But there's a stat, I think it was McKinsey or somebody else, um, did a study. They they found that frontline workers are experiencing about a 15% um rate of of purpose in their work. They're they're feeling relatively purposeless, right? They are they are a tool, a means to an end, they feel exploited, they feel underwhelmed in terms of support. Uh, they they are lacking in that. And then we experience literally the flip side of that statistic. About 85% of executives are experiencing a sense of purpose in their work. And so we have this gap between executive reality, their lived reality of their day-to-day. They have a high sense of purpose. Like you mentioned, a lot of ambitious people, high sense of drive, right? They're the type of people that are like, of course, everybody thinks the same way as I do. And because they think the same way as I do, but they're not acting the same way that I do, they must be the problem. Uh, and so we're seeing this purpose gap, right? So many people frontline, so many people on the upper end, it's just, it's just like this polar opposite. Um, I actually didn't see the stat for middle management in comparison to that. I'd be curious what it is. But looking at that gap, how can organizations better bridge that gap? How can how can leaders better understand why their frontline employees aren't having a sense of purpose? How can middle managers better give a sense of purpose? those frontline employees.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

Yeah, I I think it's I think it's actually having having conversations around just that Andrew. I I think it deals with a couple of things. Um we got we talked briefly about the generations. I think that's a very very heavy contributing factor. Right? Let's just be transparent. For the last 20 25 years, what did we tell for younger people in the United States? Graduate from high school, go to college, get a job wherein there's purpose. So people graduate how many people I know a ton, how many people have a degree that they're doing absolutely nothing whatsoever with that degree that they just paid thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars or still in pain for it. It's kept them from advancing. It's keeping them stressed, right? They're actually doing anything with it. So I think that's part of the biggest problem. And I'm in I have my master's degree in higher ed administration, Andrew. So I am a proponent but I'm a proponent of purpose in that journey. And I think that's been missed. I think it's been wholeheartedly missed. Second piece is I don't think organizations have got great about career pathing. So when you onboard someone they don't which is part of that journey of helping them be successful and purpose. One, I'm not onboarding you successfully right I'm just giving you whatever we got to do and go to work. Right? I'm not presenting I'm not setting any expectations I'm not coaching you. I'm not developing you I'm not telling you where you might end up in a year or not helping you become I'm not helping you become aware of your strengths or your talents so that you can use them so that you can win right because I I think we've gotten to this very me centered leadership aspect as long as I take care of me I don't work. Flip it is wrong. But I think the career pathing is a huge part of it because if someone comes in as a younger employee right without a lot of work experience they may not even like work which is part of the problem. But moreover it's like well if I'm here well then what if you go I love gala trust compassion stability and hope there isn't any hope for where I'm going to go or grow because that that path is not clear. And I think that's a big part of that process. You know when you get to mid-management or up there's a well-defined career path. But but the part of the problem that's there is there's a mismatch it's up to the organization to help coach but the individual has to be willing to go down that journey. And I think that's where the mismatch aligns. So not only programmatic from an organization but hey I got to figure out my career there's so much pressure what do I want to be when I grow up that I got to have the perfect job or the ideal job. No you need to find a role where the best of you can show up and then as you go through life you'll figure it out. And and I that that sounds very very old like back in my day right but it's true. And I think that's part of the piece that our younger folks today which to me attributes to that number the most they don't have a picture of their career because all they've seen is their parents and most of the younger people I have boomer parents who are getting exiting high level jobs maybe some Gen X maybe not but they've seen those hey their definition of success is six figures corner office because that's all they've ever known. They don't understand the routes that take to get to that point. And it doesn't happen because you've been in an organization for six months. Right. You'll work for it. You have to develop competencies that you can demonstrate repeatedly and you have to show that you can build relationships and rapport that gets you to that next level and organizations need to be very purposeful in that employee development journey now more than ever because if they don't then they're going to keep getting people with less purpose who are going to go try to find it somewhere else until they figure it out. Help them figure it out and then help them understand where you can plug them into your organization so that they can win because time and energy you've invested in their development it's worth it.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

100% 100% I I feel like that idea of helping them win it it's it's an easy concept and it's easy to say but our organizations actually doing our managers actually doing and our employees actually feeling it. And I think we can see by the engagement numbers and the stats universally not not well.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

And that's that's why I lead with it andrew when you ask me what do I do I help organizations win through empowering and enabling engagement of their people and and it's like well what do you mean well there's a lot to it so where would you like to start where would you like to start right you know and that's that's where really asking a lot of the right questions to help lead people down a journey of awareness themselves to focus on what truly matters and helping their organization win. And then again to find it so that you can measure it that way you can manage it. It really truly does matter.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

Yep. Oh love it Ron so if you had to leave our audience with maybe one final thought whether it's something new or maybe a summary of what we've talked about what would you want to leave the audience with and then we'll move to our wrap up I I think it's just very simple Andrew if any organization that's out there small medium large whatever you've my humble opinion take care of your people and they'll take care of your business right when you continue to do that I I think that's just critical and key in today's job market and today's climate and it starts with how you recruit right be transparent post your pay range post what the interviews agenda looks like for that role.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

Again it goes back to define, measure manage and and truly do the work that says instead of lip sync and lip service, what people are our most powerful and our most valuable resource back it up with actions back it up with ways that you demonstrate that you people truly are your best resource and it's amazing it's absolutely amazing what people will do when they believe you believe in them. Huge Ron if people want to find you they want to see more of your content they want to get in touch with you they just want to be in your orbit how do they do this yeah I love an orbit because I live in space city USA so it resonates right that's right so easiest way thank you Andrew first of all thank you for for having me here on this wonderful Monday. I know you've got a lot that you're doing around Mondays. We're crazy people that love Mondays but to get in touch with me simply find me on LinkedIn. I'm easy to find it's slash Ron Klinger. You can find me very simple I put a lot of content out on LinkedIn uh share on LinkedIn thoughts and other things uh and then my website is at motivational transitions.com uh but I've had the domain long enough where I also have the abbreviated version mtran mtran.com andrew because you want it shorter not longer not I have the longest URL on the face of this planet.com anymore right um because they're no longer available so um you can easily find me just by doing that uh LinkedIn's the best place to do it and get in touch with me directly there connect I always love having connections and I always love talking shop and I'm grateful for the chance to do so with you today Andrew thank you amen Ron thank you so much for coming on the show you got it brother be blessed till next time see you till next time